Building Up Oil Finishes

[Tom_Cooney]

Hey guys,

Disclaimer: I like finishing and playing around with techniques.

I recently borrowed a 10 year old tape by Frank Klaus from the library. The tape dealt with finishing techniques and I was fascinated by the way he applied a built up tung oil finish on a chest of drawers. Frank stated but did not demonstrate that this could be done using other oil finishes. I have used Watco Danish Oil quite a bit - but I follow the instructions on the back of the can which resulted in a nice finish but nothing really on the "surface". Will other oil finishes if applied enough times and in the correct way give a little more of a depth look for lightly used objects?

Tom

[Roger S. Dillman]

I buy Watco Danish oil that is not tinted. I make my own colors with many different mediums. The first coat is colored. Any coating after that is straight oil. To achieve a splendid finish with danish oil,I use about 4 coats. The last coat I put on with 400 grit,wet & dry sandpaper. That will give you the finish you desire.

[Dave in Cairns]

Tom , the whole point of an oiled finish is to NOT have a build up on the surface. The finish actually is created in the surface of the timber , not on top of. Although a gloss finish can be achieved with many applications , the norm is a warm satin sheen.
Because there is no coating on the surface , this finish is easily repaired and a yearly polish ensures the piece will continue to grow in beauty. The piece below has an oiled finish that I make myself .
[link:www.australianwoodart.com|http://www.australianwoodart.com/galleries/g04/spice2.jpg]

[mike gandy]

Question: I am completing my first project with Danish oil. How do I know when it is dry enough for another coat? I have let the first two coats dry 24 hours, but it still feels alittle wet. it has been cold a rainy here in Texas. I plan to put a coat of Briwax on the forth coat.

[Lou_williams]

Depending on the brand dry is relative term. What you need to do is after the correct period of time you wipe the excess off the piece with a clean rag. I then follow up a few hours later and wipe it down again. Oil seeps out of some of the large open grained wood over the first few hours. You don't need to have it dry like you would for other finishes to add the next layer. Oils main use is to penetrate into the surface of the wood. This protects the wood from the inside out vs. outside in for a varnish or poly.

24 to 48 hours is ok for recoat. If you let the finish cure for more than 48 hours it will begin to loose that "wet" feeling.

Lou

[Dave in the Charlottes]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-01 AT 11:44PM (CDT)[p]Nice work as allways Dave. Is that wood Jaharra sp?? What Is the finish.Maybe you could tell us how you post your pics. Not quite as easy as the Oak for me. I can get the link to post but not the pic .Thanks Dave

[Dave in Cairns]

Dave , it's not Jarrah but Black bean and the finish is oiled . When you post a reply or message the instructions for links and pics is at the top. Linking pics to sites is a little more involved but just basic HTML.
[link:www.australianwoodart.com|http://www.australianwoodart.com.au/galleries/g04/spice1.jpg]

[Russ Ramirez]

FYI, the tung oil based finish that Klausz used in that tape is Waterlox Transparent, now called Waterlox Original, and is now available in a satin sheen in addition to the original medium sheen.

Russ Ramirez
WoodFinishingSupplies.com

[Eli]

I think a distinction needs to be made among oil finishes and what you can and can't do with them. I am fairly new to woodworking but have done extensive research on finishing and just finished a chessboard using the waterlox product mentioned above. Waterlox is a polermizied oil with phelonic resin added. You can build that finish like poly because it is not pure oil. For example take a cup of that stuff and pour on plate glass. Wait 24 hours and you will have a hard slightly amber plastic glaze on the glass. The other end of the specturm is pure tung oil or linseed oil. This is the stuff that gets into the wood fibers but it never really dries hard. You don't want to try and build this finish up at all. Dump a cup of this on the plate glass and it will always be kind of soft and mushey as well as more yellow and less clear. What a lot of people do, an commercial companies like waterlox do, is mix oil with varnish (pehonic resin or poly for example) and thinner (a 1/3, 1/3,1/3 mix works well). You can wipe this on and oil brings out and enhances the woods beauty, the varnish seals the wood and provides a little surface protection and the thinner lets you wipe it on and expediates drying. What I am trying to get at is the type of oil finish has a lot to do with what you can and can't do with it. With waterlox or other varnish oil blends you can build it up and even rub out the finish. With 100% pure oil you can't. There are also combinations in the middle like spar varnish.

[Dave in Cairns]

but it is flawed. I've been using oiled finishes for many years. True oil finishes , not water based pseudo oil finishes either. If you ever need confirmation that these oils do dry hard , try leaving the rag that you used to rub the finish for a week and see if it can be unfolded. Your "pour it on glass " test doesn't hold water either. Try doing this with most finishes and you'll end up with a sticky mess. Oh , and by the way , check out the oiled finish Sam Maloof has been using for the past 60 years. It sure ain't some water based pseudo "oiled finish"
http://www.australianwoodart.com.au/awa_explorer/galleries/g01/platterunder.jpg

[Lou_williams]

Dave,

I am confused with your responce above. What He has posted is basicly correct. Most comercial "oil" finishes are a combination of oil, varnish, and thinner. That is what he said. I didn't read anything about "water based" in his post. Waterlox is a brand name here is the US. The oil products don't use water based products. Did I miss something.

Your right that "oil" finishes dry hard. Pure Linseed oil (not boiled linseed oil) will not dry.

[Eli]

I would be willing to bet you are using a varnish/oil blend if you are building up the oil finish. Not 100% straight oil. If you are only applying a 2 to 4 coats and wiping off the excess then maybe you are using straight oil but you are also not building up the finish. I just finished reading Jeff Jewitts book Great Finishes and Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner. Let me give you a direct quote pg. 56 of Understanding Wood Finishing

"Straight oils used as finishes have certain characteristics in common. They cure slowly comppared to every other finish and they cure to a satin (not glossy) sheen after you apply several coats. They also cure soft. This makes them impractical for use as ffinishes unless you wipe off the excess after eac application. Straight-oil finishes are true penetrating finishes. You can't build a thick hard, protective film on the surface of the wood the way you can with film finishes. If you have some cured overspill around the top of a can of linseed oil or tung oil push you fingernail into it and notice how soft it is compared to other finishes"

I would like to reiterate that what I am saying about not building it up does not apply to the same extent with oil/varnish combos (which most people mistake as a straight oil finish - including probably you). All of the following are really oil/varnish blends: minwax antique oil finsih, minwax tung oil finish, watco danish oil finish, behr tung oil finish, deft danish oil finish, etc, etc.

[Dave in Cairns]

Eli , unlike most , I make up my own oil finishes, using tung , pale boiled linseed , and beeswax. So , I do know exactly what I'm using. With any oiled finish , the idea is to NOT have any finish on TOP of the timber. As to your claim that oiled finishes can't be built up or don't harden , the pics speak for themselves. When talking of hardness , they're not as hard as polyurethane but then they don't need to be because the finish is in the timber , not as a film coating. Also one of the great advantages of an oiled finish is that it can be repaired and replenished easily . Can this be done with your type of "oil/ resin finish " ?

[Lou_williams]

Dave,

Yes it can. The Watco brand here in the USA is that type of "danish oil" finish. The difference between what you use, a boiled curing oil and the "danish oil is the varnish %. It is very similar in that the finish penitrates into the wood. But it also provides a tougher finish than the straight oils.

Very effective but it also can be repaired with great ease. The addition of the varish about 30% of the volume in most mixes give a little tougher finish than with the strait oil but very similar in other ways.

[Eli]

I think we are in agreement here. I am not putting down your oil finish, it is a very natural finish and I am sure it produces great results. As you said you are not building it up on the surface. You would not be able to rub out your finish to produce a glossy deep finish (aka a "Piano Finish"). The original post was asking if you could build up an oil finish. I really don't think you are "building up your finish" in the sense that a shellac finish is build up in french polishing (creating a thick finish on top of the work that can be rubbed out). That is really all I was getting at. However, some varnish/oil blends like waterlox can be built up and rubbed out. I don't think these finishes are superior to yours. Just different.

[Chris Michels]

I am a wee bit cornfused... I used a water based danish oil finish that did not rub out well and most recently I am putting the last app of pure danish oil on a walnut table. 2 things...

I am very pleased witht the fact that it does seem to harden. This being my first time working with walnut I was a little suprised how soft it is, though I have been using mostly oak and maple before. If you "thunk" the top with your finger it sounds harder than it did before finishing. Not that it is any sort of scientific test.

As for rubbing out... Why can't this be done??? I have been using 400 and 600 grit paper to wet sand the table with oil. 1 hour later I rub it down with 4/0 steel wool. After about 12 hours I rub again with soft cotton or wool cloth. I have been very pleased with the sheen. Not glossy but you can see relections and still feel the grain.

Am I doing something wrong here. Going agaist the grain... yuk, yuk, yuk.


Chris.

[Lou_williams]

Chris,

One of the problems with the term Oil finish is that are lots of different things that are all called an oil finish.

Danish oil is also a generic name for a mixed finish. Each manufacture has their own blend. But, most are based on 1/3 Boiled Lindseed oil, 1/3 Varnish, and 1/3 Terpintine. With this type of finish you get both the penitration of the oil and the surface film of the varnish. this type of oil finish builds with multiple coats.

You should be fine with your table. The oil is providing a hardening effect. Not as much as with a pure varnish or Lacquer, but more than you had before.

[Chris Michels]

Lou,

Once again a beacon of clarity. Thanks again for the advice and for cutting through the gobbelty gook. I think I will stick with Danish oil. This stuff is great! No more brush marks, no cat hair or dust in the finish, the depth is amazing, and easy repairs. It is more work and time but it is worth it. I like to put finished pieces in my living room for a while and let people notice them. Buged-out eyes a slow, low whistle or "ooooooooo" is the reaction from the oil finish. I never got this before using other finishes.

my 2c


Chris.

[Chris Michels]

Lou,

Once again a beacon of clarity. Thanks again for the advice and for cutting through the gobbelty gook. I think I will stick with Danish oil. This stuff is great! No more brush marks, no cat hair or dust in the finish, the depth is amazing, and easy repairs. It is more work and time but it is worth it. I like to put finished pieces in my living room for a while and let people notice them. Buged-out eyes a slow, low whistle or "ooooooooo" is the reaction from the oil finish. I never got this before using other finishes.

my 2c


Chris.