DC Separator Not Working

[1871 Federal Farmhouse]

A question for all you DC gurus out there.

I have a premade separator lid (purchased on Amazon). I RTV'ed the 4" pipes into the lid and made sure that they are sealed real good.

I have a metal garbage can that I also RTV'ed all joints, around the handles, etc.

I connected it to my DC (Delta 1.5hp) and ran the planer to try and fill the separator can.

To my suprise when I was finished, all that remained in the separator can was a little "pyramid" (~ 2" to 3" high) of dust/chips at the very bottom of the can. All other chips were sent to the DC.

The outlet on the separator does not stick down very far into the can (~ 3"), so what gives?

Am I missing something very basic on this one?

Thanks,

[Keystone]

The larger the container, the better. I use a real tall drum for mine. Catches allot more of the chips that way. A short stout can may not be deep enough. The chips have to be able to "fall" into the container with out being sucked back into the return pipe to the DC itself. Hope that makes sense..

[beamerweb]

My first though was maybe the ports are swapped. You sure you got yer insies with your insies and your outsies with your outsies?

My second thought was design. The one I have has the inlet port that's kinda spiraled, sideways, ramped, curved or whatever from the side. The outlet (to DC) is right smack in the center. I have seen some that have both the inlet and the outlet ports as spiraled, sideways, ramped, curved or whatever from the sides - they ramp towards each other. This doesn't seem like it'd work and so I've avoided that design. Any chance you could describe to us what design you have (pics would be ideal!)

My third thought was can size. How tall is that thing? It sounds like you're using an adequately sized can but I can't tell for sure.

My fourth thought is that I've given enough thoughts for the day :P

Truly, pics of your setup would speak volumes, but I suspect the ports may be reversed.

[Sonny Edmonds]

You need to understand what cyclonic separation does.
The DC blower draws from the center of the chamber. As it creates a void within the can, the incoming air in induced along the side. Because of it's flow the air spins within the chamber. Anything in that air has a certain amount of mass and is centrifugally thrown along the sides and gravity pulls it downward as the air is cleaned of particles and is drawn off from the vortex of this artificial cyclone.
It your inlet does not direct the incoming air along the side, or your outlet is not centered on the lid and chamber, you will upset the cyclone generated inside your chamber. That will cause the particals to stay suspended and fly out with the air being drawn off.
Since you got it off of Amazon, can you show us a link to it?
Is it [link:www.amazon.com/Jet-JW1049-Dust-Collection-Separator/dp/B0000223XY/sr=1-5/qid=1166815133/ref=sr_1_5/103-6728025-2651042?ie=UTF8&s=hi | THIS?]
Because that is a fundamentally bad design. The draw should be from the center of the lid to the blowers inlet.

You can look [link:home.att.net/~paul.edmonds/home.htm | HERE] to see how my homemade separator lid was configured. The only thing that got to the bags from this was flour dust. Everything else wound up in the drums. ;)

:D

[link:home.att.net/~paul.edmonds/|Sonny Edmonds ]
Saugus, CA
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[woodmannie]

Hey, that one from amazon looks like the one I have. I got it on a 30 gal can and it works fine. I didn't seal anything. I just put the hoses through and put on hose clamps on the inside. I haven't had to dump my dc bags in months, other than for the fine dust. I also used a clear hose on the port from can to the dc so I can see if it is sucking chips. Easier than lifting the lid all the time. And the chips go in bags and given to a friend that has chickens. Just no walnut!!

wm

[Sonny Edmonds]

Hey Tom, I'd like to see a picture of the underside of one of these lids. Can you do that?

Other than that, it's safe to say your dust collection is for the birds. }> http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_3_10.gif
(Hey, you said it first!) LMAO! :7

:D

[link:home.att.net/~paul.edmonds/|Sonny Edmonds ]
Saugus, CA
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
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[1871 Federal Farmhouse]

Sonny, Jason, and Ken,

Thanks for the replies and lessons.

I believe I have my innies to my innies and my outies to my outies.

The lid I have has one port at the outside edge at about a 30 degree down angle. I have my planer connected to this one (my innie (sp?)).

Then the second port is in the middle vertically. I have this one connected to my DC (outie). I believe this is the correct configuration.

I'll try to get some pictures for you guys. I just don't know if I'll have them before Christmas.

Given my above configuration, would you guys think it should work?

My can is approximately 30" tall, so I don't think it would be because there's not enough clearance from the bottom of the can to the outie port.

Thanks again and can't wait to see if I did ok.

[beamerweb]

yep, yer innies and yer outies are right. The design is right. The can sounds right. ... Maybe yer DC just sucks too much? That's unfortunate! :P

I know that when I was trying to come up with a version of this for 6" pipe, I discovered that the volume of air that 6" moves would require a pretty big can to work otherwise it'd just be empty like you're experiencing.

I don't have much more of a clue than that - it really should be working fine according to your setup. From what I understand, 4" pipe maxes out at around 600 or 700cfm. Most DC's can't pull that much (despite manufacturer's claims) through very much pipe. I'm kinda out of ideas at this point ... maybe sonny can help?

[beamerweb]

Oh, another idea ... perhaps the particles aren't slowing down enough at the outer edges of that slick metal can (mine's plastic). I wonder what the easiest way to test this would be .... First thought was some adhesive backed 220 grit sandpaper ... but that'd take a lot ... hmm ... something that wouldn't be permanent (in case i'm way off) .... hmm ... paint comes to mind, but it's not exactly temporary. *shrug*

I'm out of ideas ... lol

[1871 Federal Farmhouse]

Jason,

I appreciate the reply.

I must admit the the DC does work extremely well.

Without the separator, I can run 20' of flexible hose and still have significant "suck" at the end of the hose. It will pull every last chip from my planer without complaining one bit.

For once in my life I get something that works better than advertised!

I guess I can't complain about that one!

Thanks again!

[deepsplinter]

From what Sonny taught me , that looks like one fine "store-bought" seperator. He'll be back before long and get you all lined out.

[Sonny Edmonds]

It sounds like it's hooked-up right, Mike.
But something is causing too much turbulance and not letting the chips fall where they should. They are traveling through.

Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out why.
This message will turn to bull chit in 5 seconds..... }>

Are you using a plastic liner in it?

:D

[link:home.att.net/~paul.edmonds/|Sonny Edmonds ]
Saugus, CA
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
God Bless America !
One Nation Under God!
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Welcome to the Forum!
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[woodmannie]

LMAO.
Sonny, I'll try to get a pic tommarrow. I had problems getting pics on the site before but I got a new program. All I do know is that it seperates well.

wm

[Sonny Edmonds]

I think I see a problem, Houston.
Your lid is too big for your can. I can see it overhanging by what appears to be quite a bit.
Your new assignment is to find a can that fits the lid and is as big as possible. Even if it means finding an open top 55 gallon drum.
Other than that, your lid looks great. Center suction, side induced debris, appears it should work.
I think the can size is what's throwing it off.
I just checked two cans in my shop. The 30 gallon one (dog food) is 21" acrossed.
The 55 gallon (cyclone) is more like 23 1/2 - 24" acrossed.
Might want to compare those apples to your oranges. See if a 55 gallon, in fact, wouldn't fit your separator lid better.
I would NOT recommend a "normal" plastic type trash can. They just can't hold up to the suction imposed on them. I tried a rubbermade heavy duty Brute series once and it couldn't keep from puckering up.
The 55 gallon chemical shipping drums will work. You could jig saw, or sawzall the lid out of one for a chamber.
Be sure to wash it out real good with hot sudsy water to remove and residoo in it. ;)

:D

[link:home.att.net/~paul.edmonds/|Sonny Edmonds ]
Saugus, CA
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
God Bless America !
One Nation Under God!
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[Cody Colston]

I think Sonny hit on the problem. The lid is too large for that garbage can...actually vice-versa...the can is too small for the lid. I think that lid is made to fit on a larger drum...probably a 55 gal drum.

The trash can sides are too close to the DC intake. As a result, it is sucking up the chips before they can fall. If the can were a larger diameter, the sides would be further away from the intake, allowing the cyclone to form...chips to the outside, fairly clean air in the vortex.

My cyclone will pick up the chip canister until it gets about half full, so I don't think the suction is too great. The small can is just not allowing cyclonic action to happen.

Cody
Tyler, TX



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[1871 Federal Farmhouse]

WoodMangler,

As you guys constantly tell me, a picture is worth a thousand words.

The separator lid actually has two "steps" on it so that it can fit a smaller can (my size) or a larger can (Sonny's size).

The lid actually does overhang my can, but it rides on the inner lip, that has a foam gasket.

Looks like I need to get a bigger can!

Thanks for all the help and troubleshooting!

Merry Christmas,

[Sonny Edmonds]

Just call up [link:www.donaldson.com/en/industrialair/cartridge/index.html | Torit] and tell them you need this:

http://home.att.net/~paul.edmonds/shop_dc_final_filter/100hpdustcollector.jpg

Dick Laxton emailed this to me and I replied with the component identification.
This is a "mere" 100 HP dust collector set-up.
Druel, druel, druel! :P

But the point is this: Look at how the big boys do it, then scale it down for your shop. ;)
The air flow in this component system is from 5 to 1.

:D

[link:home.att.net/~paul.edmonds/|Sonny Edmonds ]
Saugus, CA
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
God Bless America !
One Nation Under God!
"Lurkimus turdius orifus"

Welcome to the Forum!
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[WoodMangler]

It's kinda funny looking at the huge system... but the barrel is the same as you have in your shop :)

[Keystone]

I thought that was odd MarC. One would think that a system off that size would have a huge catch can..

[WoodMangler]

So... ya think it takes 3 seconds or 4 seconds to fill that barrel?

Maybe they only use it for dust??

Confused.... http://www.woodhelp.com/confused-smiley-013.gif

[Sonny Edmonds]

I believe this is something off of a Louisiana-Pacific Company mill.
Guessing from the size of the cyclone (small), the huge ducting, and that giant fine dust filtering bank, my thought would be some sort of sanding operation is inside that barn.
Make sense?
Not a great deal of heavy particles, so a 55 gallon drum can suffice.
A large amount of fines and powder, so large on that part of the spectrum, big filter house.
Item 3 looks a lot like the filter for our new HVAC system up in our attic on the intake for the system. Of course, ours is a lot smaller with 20" connections on either side.
But eggzacary the same appearance. There is this 5" thick pleated filter inside of ours.
Anyhow, those are my cornclusions.

If you look real close the inlet for the cyclone appears to be set to cause a counter-clockwise spin. (You can see a bit of flange to the left of the cyclone.)
I have always wondered about the cyclone direction and its effect on separation North or South of the equator. Our water spins CCW, while South spins the opposite direction. (Or vice-versa, I forget)
All of my chambers have been clockwise. But I wonder if the direction makes a difference in efficiency.
Any thoughts? ;)


:D

[link:home.att.net/~paul.edmonds/|Sonny Edmonds ]
Saugus, CA
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
God Bless America !
One Nation Under God!
"Lurkimus turdius orifus"

Welcome to the Forum!
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[1871 Federal Farmhouse]

Sonny,

That's an incredible system. I think you could loose small dogs, cats, and children at the sucking end of that thing!!!!

I'll think I will try to scale mine back a bit!!!

[WoodMangler]

"All of my chambers have been clockwise. But I wonder if the direction makes a difference in efficiency.
Any thoughts?"

Hmm...

My thoughts, without hurting my widdle bwain, is this...

Since the chamber is such an enclosed system, it don't matter.... as the rotation is solely dependent on the force of the discharge :)

.... OK... Tylenol time ....

[beamerweb]

Actually, there is a preference. And it depends on your location on the planet. These are the same forces that cause your toilet to drain one direction here vs. the other direction in australia.

Marc's right, though. It really doesn't matter. The difference is effectively moot. I just had this hair that I needed to rip into smaller pieces. :D

[WoodMangler]

I have seen on some homemade designs, and some DC plans from magazines (I think?) that incuded a chip deflector as part of the design.... the chips are deflected downward when they enter the drum by a piece of wood or plastic... I never understood why you would want this type of setup, but maybe now I do...

My DC seperator is home made, and uses a regular plastic 4" DC elbow for the inlet side inside the seperator, and a straight pipe for outlet from the seperator... has worked great for years...

You guys think maybe the suction is so great on his setup that a deflector is needed??

[WoodMangler]

ah... methinks again...

Couldn't see the pic... enhanced the pic, and now I can see that the lid doesn't fit at all!

[1871 Federal Farmhouse]

Ok guys,

I think I was able to upload the pictures (I snuck down stairs while wrapping presents - hee hee hee).

The first picture shows how the separator is connected to the dust collector. I did remove the innie hose from the planer.

The second picture shows the maximum amount of chips I can seem to get in the can.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,