Bowl bottoms,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[dicklaxt]

I attended a bowl judging as a spectator, the bottom of the bowl had to be cut off with a lathe tool and the bottom should not be flat but slightly convex so that only the edge of the base contacted the surface,this seemed to be a big thiing with the judges at thisthey were really looking at the bottoms ,I was too, there were lots soft warm things they call ladies walking around.

There is also a rario of foot size to bowl size but I can't remember what,,,,someone post it if they have it.

dick

[Cody Colston]

Dick,

A buddy here told me that it was the "rule-of-thirds."

The foot should be 1/3 the diameter of the bowl.

Cody


The expert at anything was once a beginner...

[Sonny Edmonds]

Rule of thirds... Banana's!
I say do what YOU want to do and poop on a bunch of judges.
I do it because I like to do it. And sometimes what starts off with grandious ideas often takes its own course.
As long as you are happy, others will like it. Somebody will like whatever the wood gives you.
Use your own style and your own heart to coax the soul of the wood out. Be different, be bold, be creative.
Trying to saticfy some stuffy judges just stiffels you. And they may in fact not be actual turners themselves, just egotists.
I do convexing as a natural way to get a solid supporting bottom. On dovetailed socket bottoms, I leave the socket finished as a place to brand and date the piece.
And I don't give a hoot what any judge thinks. What gives me the greatest joy is the delight in folks faces when they touch and look at what the wood gave to me.
Win hearts with your creations, not contests.

My Mom had a little decorative mirror in her study, I always loved what it said:
"Success lies not in being the best,
But in doing your best...."

:D

[link:www.sonnyedmonds.com | Sonny Edmonds] http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/vortex_smiley.gif
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
God Bless America !
One Nation Under God!


http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/shop/cat_with_long_tongue.jpg

[dicklaxt]

Yea but you contrary old fart,,,theres a right way and a wrong way when it comes to eye appeal,,,,,,,,,,,the snake said that!!!!

dick

[Bill G]

Hi Dick

As Cody mentions, the rule of thirds is a good starting place. To give Sonny some credit too, if you stick too close to it, your work can become, shall we say, wooden. :D There are certain ratios in design that are very appealing to the human eye. Beyond that, there are also some engineering concepts - a good salad bowl should look good, but it also needs to be able to stand up while food is being served in order for it to be a good bowl.

However, these are not hard and fast rules, only guidelines. they can be violated within certain limits and the results will still be pleasing. I think a good bowl bottom should be finished off smoothly, and it should be concave for the most part. Some of mine are slightly concave, some more so. The concavity is so that it will sit well on a flat surface without rocking. With a little bit of work you can still create the illusion of a wider bottom and still have it concave.

I was at a craft show myself this weekend. I came across several turners. One had all his bowl bottoms finished off with a piece of leather glued to a 1/8" piece of plywood glued to the bottom of the bowl. While his side walls were fairly thin, the bottoms were very heavy. That plus the leather was a dead giveaway that he was using a faceplate and screws and not reversing the bowl to finish off the bottom. Despite a good finish on the upper parts, the bowls all had a very clunky feel to them.

Bowls can be turned using a faceplate only without leaving screw holes, fat bottoms, or leather coverings. Expensive chucks are not a necessity. I will try to do up some pictures in the near future to describe the process.

Bill

[Sonny Edmonds]

Well, how do you think they came up with these "rights" and "wrongs"?
It's like a woman, you don't anyalize it, you just _ _ _ _ it.
Likewise, trying to adhere to some "rule" would get rather monotinous.
You don't always drive the speed limit, do Ya?
Shucks, we'd all look like the red Chinese did in quilted uniforms if we got to hung up on a certian "thing".

Ya ever see this:

State Of Mind

Being an Outlaw is a state of mind.
You don’t have to rob banks, or mug old ladies to be one.
The man with the Outlaw mind operates most comfortably on the fringe of things.
That’s where the excitement is, beyond the bounds of polite society.
Risk excites him, the conventional bores him.
Men with an Outlaw mentality are not just rowdier versions of normal folks,
they’re a whole different type of human being.
Men with Outlaw personalities know it’s a jungle out there….
And they like it!

Author Unknown

:7 :P }> ;)



:D

[link:www.sonnyedmonds.com | Sonny Edmonds] http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/vortex_smiley.gif
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
God Bless America !
One Nation Under God!


http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/shop/cat_with_long_tongue.jpg

[Sonny Edmonds]

Bill,
Besides a waste block, brown paper, and glue? Or vacuum chucking?
Sounds like you nailed that fellow with the plywood and leather. :P I think I would have suspected the same.
My bottom is bare whenever I don't have my jeans on. :o
All my bowl bottoms are bare, but finished. Reguardless of method used to turn them.
Shucks, I even finish the bottom of tables and drawers, and insides of stuff. I know.... I'm weird. :7

:D

[link:www.sonnyedmonds.com | Sonny Edmonds] http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/vortex_smiley.gif
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
God Bless America !
One Nation Under God!


http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/shop/cat_with_long_tongue.jpg

[Dario]

Bill,

I will be waiting for that post. Would it by an chance your compression chuck? It is very impressive and simple that a lot of people will benefit on, more so the financially challeged ones like me.

Dario :)

[TDHofstetter]

Wonder what they'd do with mine? I always seem to finish off my bottoms into a thin-ring foot something like about 1/8" deep. In fact, sometimes I'm told that I pay too much attention to the bottom ... (_*_) :) :) :)

I never EVER think about any guidelines when I'm sizing that little ringy foot, though - that depends entirely upon what the specific bowl WANTS for a foot. Some much larger than 1/3, some quite a bit smaller. What the bowl wants is what the bowl gets.



-- Tim --


Every person's handiwork
Is a self-portrait.

[WoodMangler]

If there is one area of bowl turning that is a pain in the patootie it's the bottoms...

I try and use a recess, and it doesn't hold in the chuck too well...

I try using a tenon, and it's a PITA cause ya gotta take that tenon off... and my cole jaws don't hold for beans and the buttons leave black marks on the bowl...

I try and use waste blocks and... they work well but the bottom is just flat... no decorative rings or concave bottom... just flat....

Yup... bowl bottoms are a P.I.T.A. ;)

Which ratio?... I noticed that the "rule of thirds" appeals to my eye... when I see a bowl that meets this ratio I like it... not cause someone said I should, because I do :) I also like having my bowls critiqued by pros like Bill because I want to improve... and these guys know what they're talking about eh.. and I respect their opinion... without these critiques I would still be making dog bowls with lots of flat spots }>

One kinda wierd thing that I have noticed about my "eye".... regular bowls look better to me when they have a foot that is about a third the size of the rim, but on end grain turnings I like a more straight sided shape... wierd eh?.... but hey, that's what appeals to me :)

Bottoms... they're a pain! ;)

[dicklaxt]

Marc when using a glue block ,I oft times go straight in with a parting tool about 3/8" and then turn away an 1/8th to 3/16th's of the glue block ,this allows me to run the parting tool in on a slight angle. I roll the parting tool slightly to the right and scrape the bottom smooth as I'm parting off. I don't know if this is acceptable but it works and gives you a convex/concave bottom. I'm going to go look those damn words up.

edit in : concave fits and if you set it on a sphere of the same curvature then it sets on the convex surface that has a chord equal to the distance across the concave depression,,,,,,bull chit!!!!

rotfflmfao

dick

[DaveZ]

That's how I do it most times. The concave cut is almost not perceptible. Most times I won't even use a glue block, just screw the faceplate into the blank, then part off above the screws, dialing in the bottom thickness I want. Like this

http://www.woodworking.com/dcforum/User_files/4065926d06b4000e.jpg

Will that pass the sniff test, or do I need to do some doodlin on the bottom?

[dicklaxt]

You know Dave thats pretty neat,,,,,,,,,,,,,How come you never told us that little gem of info before. I sure have wasted a lot of time farting around with glue blocks for the last couple of years ,,DUH!!!!

dick

[WoodMangler]

I dunno man... aint no doodles ;)

Muhuhahahah!!!

I kinda like it when I doodle my bottom... I'd like it even more if uhh... err.... better not go there.... }>

[DaveZ]

I use glue blocks mostly on segmented stuff and every once in a while on a bowl blank. It gives you the most blank to work with. I have slowly been bringin up my collection of oneway faceplates as I tend to reach for a faceplate first. Using #14 1" sheetmetal screws gives me a projection into the blank of 9/16", which is plenty secure on a side grain blank, I move up to 1 1/2" screws for endgrain. You lose about a 1/4" more wood using the faceplate than a chuck.

Two things that are important here, you need a good parting tool. I have the sorby 3/16" diamond shape one. You will also need a quality faceplate, I wouldn't get anything but a oneway, great product and all things considered, a heckuva bargain.

I got to turn on a 1236 recently, nice lathe. I was not that impressed with the Jet supplied faceplate. You guys that have that lathe should consider a oneway faceplate, you'll love it. I also have a question regarding the max size bowl you can turn on it(comfortably) How much over 12" has anybody gone. The swiveling head is a great feature BTW!

[dicklaxt]

What is it about the oneway face plate that makes it so desirable??

I always looked as a face plate as a fixture only, be it steel copper, brass, cast,alum, wood etc, a face plate is a face plate is a face plate,lets have some education here.

dick

[WoodMangler]

"How much over 12" has anybody gone. "

16"... err... 4" over 12 ;) ...seemed to work just fine... I also am wondering what exactly you love about the Oneway?

(after reversing....)

http://a2.cpimg.com/image/FC/BD/29511932-e7e6-027E0252-.jpg

[_Tony]

I have a few ways to finish my bottoms and one that I saw online about a year ago that has worked great for me for most cases. I use a doughnut chuck that allows me all the freedom I need for a perfect bottom, no excuses.

The following link isn't the one that I originally saw, but it'll give you the idea.
http://www.avwa.org/projects/DoughnutChuck.pdf

I have several size holes that I keep on hand for different bowls. It's worked like a charm.

As far as judges, I can't stand those stuffy a$$holes anyway. My background is photo and I can recall the number of contests I entered to just be shot down by particular judges, while others have loved the same works. I just take them with a grain of salt I guess and don't let them influence my style for the most part. If it feels good to me I just do it.

Tony




---------------------------
"An honest man's pillow is
his peace of mind."

[OldGriz]

Bill has his version of a bowl turning jig on his site..
http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/bowljig.html

[link:www.oldgriz.biz|Tom Mullane]
[link:www.oldgriz.biz|Old Griz Scroll Art]
http://www.oldgriz.biz
The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist

[DaveZ]

16" eh, that's gonna make someone I know very happy.

I like the way the oneway is made. Heavy duty, lots of screw holes(6 in the 3" and 8 in the 4" and I'd have to take my shoes off to count the holes in the 6") The screws are easily accessible with a standard bit holder in my screwgun(not so with the one PM shipped with the lathe) I like being able to use fat screws and I like that the screw holes are countersunk "\ /". The best part is the price/value I see, especially when compared to a chuck. About $40 for something that'll last forever.

[_Tony]

Aaaahhh, that's where I saw it first.

T




---------------------------
"An honest man's pillow is
his peace of mind."

[Bill G]

Hi guys

Yeah, there are ways, and you mention some of them. I learned recently how to use hot melt glue to hold a bowl fast to a waste block. It is fast, it is secure, and it is inexpensive.

A Canadian turner, Ken Bullock, uses this method, and it is from him that I learned it. He uses an electric frying pan to melt glue sticks into a big puddle. This actually works very quickly. The bowl is screwed to the faceplate and the outside is roughed. Then, a wasteblock is fixed to the same or a second faceplate, trued up, dipped in the glue, and stuck fast to the bottom of the bowl. The bowl is turned inside and out, parted off, and then fixed between centers with a friction chuck or held with a compression chuck to finish off the bottom.

The nice thing about the hot melt glue is that is is very inexpensive, it fills gaps better than CA glue, and has tremendous bonding strength when the area of bonding is taken into account. Also, it has much more shear strength compared to CA glue. The drawback is, you don't want to get any on you. Boy is that stuff hot!

I got my frying pan from a second hand store for free. It had been donated and was going to be thrown out because the Teflon was scorched. Even if I had to buy one, I was looking at the $3.00 - $10.00 range. The glue can be remelted and reused over and over again. Whatever you do, don't grab SWMBO's good electric frypan, or you are going to be for more trouble than you might realize. This stuff does not peel off the pan without a trace. In fact, it doesn't peel out of the pan at all!

Bill

[WoodMangler]

I use CA (of course :) ) on waste blocks.... and it seems so easy that I was actually surprized when Bill said he uses hot melt glue!

I'm going to guess that the hot melt is stronger than CA, so it works better on the larger turnings that you do?... because the CA is so easy I have to wonder why you'd go through all that trouble with the pan and all that... I put the thick CA on both sides, spray a little accelerator on one side, and stick them together... poof!... they're stuck!

Gotta be the strength eh?... cause I can't imagine anything any easier than CA!

[keithz]

I handle bowl bottoms in various manners. I do not use a chuck so I developed my techniques using a faceplate.

I either use a wasteblock to attach the bowl or screw the faceplate directly to the blank. When I use the wasteblock, I part the bowl off with a sharp chisel, then reverse the bowl onto a jamb chuck or a padded block of wood to finish the bottom. When I just screw the faceplate on, I part the bowl off at an angle and the bottom just needs to be sanded and finished.

I like to make my bowl bottoms relatively simplely with just a single ring of a foot, if there is a foot. Sometimes I just leave the bottom flat, especially if the wood was kiln dried.

keithz

[dkulze]

You might not think it but faceplates flex, ALOT! If you're turning and you start getting that chatter, on a faceplated piece, it's probably the plate flexing. The way the oneway plates are built makes them extremely stiff and able to take great torsional stress without flexing. S'worth the extra money if you do large items.

I use a modified jam chuck when I do bottoms. I just turn a waste block until it fits in the bowl or vase and presses on the actual bottom of the piece. I then run up the dead center, turn it down to a nice bottom of any style I want, and shave off the remaining nipple with a flex saw or carving knife. Sand a touch and it is done.

[Sonny Edmonds]

Dave,
Yep, that's another way to do it.
My basic problem with a spigot or your method is how much of the piece of wood I loose. That always bothered me, having a pile of chips and curls.
I've done it, but having this waste area always chapped my butt. }>

:D

[link:www.sonnyedmonds.com | Sonny Edmonds] http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/vortex_smiley.gif
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
God Bless America !
One Nation Under God!


http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/shop/cat_with_long_tongue.jpg

[Dario]

Hi Marc,

I read a lot about the risks of using CA on attaching blanks to a waste block...as you and Bill said, the issue boils down to the strength of the bond.

I am a newbie and far from knowing first hand about this info but apparently, CA need moisture to cure properly...BUT, CA cannot bond well to moist wood (probably because it cannot seep in). So this is a catch 22 as far as I am concerned.

I read too that using accelerator also have its disadvantages, something about the fast curing of the "outer" layer (I know CA is thin but it still apply) and not getting a uniform curing all throughout. This forms a weak inner layer which can lead to accidents when coupled with fast revolving wood.

As I said I just read about this but just sharing in case it is of interest to some. Just a gentle reminder not to be too confident with this super product...that though it can do amazing things, it has its limitations and care/safety must still be practiced. I for one tend to be complacent at times }>.

Please take this with a grain of salt. :D

Dario :)

[Sonny Edmonds]

Dario,
I'd take that with a grain of rock salt, myself. ;)
PVA types of glue (Gorilla & Poly types in that catigory) need the moisture to catilize. Not CA.
CA reacts with the alycalinity of the wood. I'm not a chemist, but I do know CA reacts with baking soda, which is on the base side of the Ph scale. (7.0 being distilled water)
And I have experianced it hardening to the center of a deep bond. Like when I use it for pen blanks, it's hard all the way through on the ones I have distroyed and salvaged the tube from.

I can understand the attraction to hot melt glue as well. Much of it has had a rubbery bond to work with, but strong and fast, in my experiances with it.
The waste block/brown paperbag/blank with yellow glue has worked very well for me. And popping it loose with a chisel went very well also. But it has to cure.

So I have pretty much focused on chucked dovetailed sockets, some spigots, and vacuum chucking. Vacuum chucking being my favorite method, because it leaves no marring on most pieces.
Some things I have turned entirely with vacuum chucking, like small plates.

One really nice advantage to a faceplate or glue block use is that it sticks to a center setting. Making a mecanical bond from the spindal to the piece. Not likely to get off center, unless the bond fails.

Lottsa ways to skin a cat.
I've been applying CA to wet wood lately and so far, so good. It seems to penitrate fine so far to get the surface finish I was after. More experimental at this point.
Thinking outside the box again. ;)

:D

[link:www.sonnyedmonds.com | Sonny Edmonds] http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/vortex_smiley.gif
"Precision Firewood Specialist"
God Bless America !
One Nation Under God!


http://home.earthlink.net/~sonnypie/shop/cat_with_long_tongue.jpg

[dkulze]

Actually don't lose more than about 1/4-1/2 inch at most and, considering that this is usually the same as my tenion thickness, it's no great loss.

[robsweet]

As always, Bill, we anxiously await your next tutorial. :)

Rob Sweet
Web Geek by Day, Woodworker by Night
rob@ldg.net