Problems Mounting a Towel Bar

[PastorPaul]

Yesterday, I decided it was time to install the towel bar I had purchased for the tub/shower about a month ago. The will of the tub surround had very little play, so I assumed there was wall directly behind it.

I drilling the four holes for the mounting brackets, installed the plastic screw anchors, and proceeded to attach the brackets. Already with the first screw, the anchor just started turning the in the hole because there was nothing solid for the anchor to bite into. I pulled the anchor out and using my awl discovered that the wall is actually 1 1/2" behind the tub surround. Now I have four holes in the tub surround and no towel bar.

How should I handle this problem? My first thought was to use the metal expansion screws that are designed for hollow walls, but I am afraid that the teeth in the gripping head will either crack the surround material, or not get a grip in it. My second idea is to use the butterfly type hollow wall anchors, getting ones for 1/4" holes that are long enough to reach back into the wall behind, and finally to use washers to close up the gap between the size of the machine screw and the 1/4" hole (or will the washer bring the mounting brackets out so far that there will be a water inviting gap behind the towel bar ends?

Any ideas or suggestions?

Pastor Paul
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[WoodMangler]

Hiya Padre...

I have 2 questions (sorry)

(1) Why would you mount a towel bar INSIDE the shower?.. wont the towel get wet??... or is this a hand rail bar?

(2) The wall, 1 1/2" behind the surround wall, what's it made of? If it's just drywall, we're gonna have to back up and punt I think...

[PastorPaul]

Marc,

The towel bar is actually there to hold the bath mat, so it doesn't stay wet and get mold and mildew.

I am assuming that the wall behind is wallboard, but don't really know for sure. I ran a drill back through and it seems to drill like wallboard, and the residue seems to back that up.

I was thinking that I could use the long butterfly type mounts that would go back through the drywall and anchor there. I would just have to make sure that I don't tighten the screws so tight that I bend and crack the tub surround.

Pastor Paul
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[GlennS]

How about making a base out of a material that is thick enough to anchor the bar to, then using adhesive to attach that base to the surround?

I am thinking of something like starboard or even some wood that is WELL sealed, either a single piece a bit larger than the bar, or two smaller pieces-one for each end. They would need to be large enough to provide adequate glue surface. Use something like Liquid Nails, epoxy, Gorilla Glue or some 5200 to attach it to the surround, then mount the bar to it. If needed or desired run a bead of caulk around the base to keep water out or just for looks.

Just thought I'd throw that idea into the pot :)

Glenn

[WoodMangler]

...exactly what I was going to recommend... hence my questions...

I'd use a decorative backing that's thick enough to screw the towel bar into, and attach it to the surround with epoxy. Maybe a nice piece of oak, routered edges, marine varnished within an inch of it's life? :)

[PastorPaul]

But wouldn't using the added wood just add to the weight pulling on the tub surround and increaset the risk of cracking it? I'm not sure myself, that's why I'm asking?

Pastor Paul
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[FireWrks7]

Pastor Paul,
All of the above sound like good answers. However, (someone correct me if I am wrong) if the surround is made of fiberglass then there shouldn't be a problem. I know some pro on this board may have another idea or way of doing it but for the time being I'll put in my two pennies. Whichever system you decide to go with, just to give you peace of mind, why not spray in some of that insulating foam sealant between walls. The Hilti brand ($9 a can)they sell at Home Depot or Dow's Great Stuff (no more than $4, more economical and easier to use I think) at Lowes are both supposed to cure rigid. This way you can stuff the void to limit the amount of flex. YMMV

Anthony

[PastorPaul]

Gee, I'm glad I thought of that! :P

Thanks, Anthony! That is one idea that never crossed my mind. It sounds like it will solve the problem. I think I still want to use the longer butterfly mounts, but that foam will really take some of the strain off the fiberglass. From the odor produced by the drilling, I suspect it is fiberglass. After three years of having our rental storage right next door to a fiberglass pool factory, it's a bit hard to forget that smell.

Pastor Paul
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[WoodMangler]

Actually, the board being adhered to the fiberglass will make it stronger and less prone to cracking by limiting it's ability to flex.

[WoodMangler]

Depending on the framing and whether or not there's any fireblocks, the foam will just go all over the place and not do anything... Even if there's some way of containing the foam, you'll need to drill an expansion hole in the fiberglass or in the wallboard on the other side, and you still risk bulging the thin fiberglass surround....

AND.... (:) ) if you get the foam in there correctly, what have you accomplished? Ya can't screw into it... you'd have to go all the way through to the wallboard, and we all know how wonderfully wallboard holds a screw ... NOT!

But hey, I'm just shooting from the hip :)

[FireWrks7]

Expansion would be a problem if you overfill the space and if the foam were strong enough to push out. The epoxy method you describe would then work great and the flex PP is talking about would be eliminated.

I had a bee invasion a few weeks ago through a bathroom vent. Since I didn't want to end up in the ER again the bees were professionally exterminated. I didn't want to mess with the original stucco either so I cut out the vent grill to put in the neccessary wire mesh screen. The builder didn't do a good job with the area surrounding the vent pipe so I used the Dow foam to fill in the gaps. I trimmed down the excess sticking outside (foam applied so I wouldn't have vent pipe deformation), drilled a piolt hole through the foam so I could screw in the new vent cover to the base wood. As I put in the screws, they gripped nicely to the foam. It surprised me because the instructions didn't mention having that property.

I've seen other foams just lay there like packing peanuts so I understand the concern you mention. The Hilti CF 116 Grip foam, if I am remembering the instructions on the can correctly, supposedly can be screwed into as well. Besided the big fancy brand name I think it is one of the reasons why it is so expensive. I don't think there would be a problem with these foams getting all over the place because of their adhesive properties. Just snake in the applicator, spray in a little, and wait to let it set-up and expand. Spray in more as needed to fill the gap. Easy as punch. Mind you, I am not suggesting on relying on the foam to hold the toggle bolts PP is talking about, but rather using the foam to limit the tub surround deflection. The butterfly toggle bolts should go all the way behind the backer board he mentioned.

As always, YMMMV.


Anthony

[Tom D]

Just my .02 cents. If you use the foam in the holes already drilled just push in the plastic anchors while the foam is still wet because it is a very good adheasive.

[PastorPaul]

I hadn't thought of that. If it doesn't work, I can just remove, or drill out, the anchors and dril all the way to the drywall and use the butterfly anchors.

Pastor Paul
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[GlennS]

By making a larger base to screw into, it would be distributing the force over a larger area of the fiberglass rather than concentrating it all in the area of the screws, so while it still might flex a bit it would be stonger overall than just screwing into the fiberglass.

To add to our (since I beat you to the post Marc :) ) idea of making a base to attach the bar to, if you made it from a single large piece rather the the two I had suggested, the base would hopefully span across at least one wall stud that you could secure it to-then it shouldn't flex much if any.

Did the expanding foam work? It sounds like a good idea to me, I have used that stuff for some off the wall (pardon the pun) things myself :)

Glenn

[rrich]

PP,
If it were me, I would try a few avenues to solve the problem.

Go to a major plumbing store/shop/supply house and explain the situation. I'm sure that they will have a solution for you. The big problem that I see is to insure that the wall is waterproof again.

If there is nothing in the plumbing venue, try a marine supply store. Here there should be fiberglass patch kits, stainless mollies (expanding and clamping devices a.k.a. 'Hollow Wall Anchors') for mounting and/or specialty mounting devices. The mounting devices designed for a marine environment probably will solve the water integrity problem.

By the way, many mollies come with a little holding device that can be used to hold the barrel of the molly to prevent it from turning during the installation process. This wrench is little more than a "U" shaped piece of wire that fits into two holes in the head of the molly. Unfortunately I think that this style of mollies only come by the box of 100. You'll need the ones that are for thin walls, 1/8" and up.

If you go the molly path, be sure to set the molly in a big glob of silicone during installation and put silicone in the molly while attaching the towel bar mounting hardware.

Finally, I was in HD the other day. Next to the mirrors was a 15" glass shelf that could be glued to a mirror. You may want to take this route to cover up the holes.

Rich

[Rmiralles]

PP,

This may be too late but I had the same problem about a year ago, what I did was seal back the holes and get those 3M hooks that you can just stick on anything just about and can carry a load as heavy as 10 lbs at least.

RMir

[PastorPaul]

Well, the problem is solved. I bought a can of the minimal expanding foam and sprayed it into one mounting hole for each side of the towel bar. When the foam started coming out the second hole on that side, I immediately put the screw anchor in that hole and directed the foam toward the middle of the wall. When the can felt about half empty, I put a screw anchor in the fill hole and repeated the same procedure on the other side.

After the foam can was empty and all four mounting holes had their screw anchors in place, I set a 24 inch square sheet of plywood against the wall, put another piece of scrap plywood on the opposite side of the wall and put tension between the two with the spring-loaded shower rod.

The next morning the wall was solid, the anchors were locked into place, and I mounted the towel bar. I think that sucker is there to stay.

Pastor Paul
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[WoodMangler]

Super Doooooper!

I love this place... I have NEVER heard of using expanding foam in this manner.... ever!
and... and.......and.... I'm

Maintenance Man!!

Gotta love it... Never would have thought foam would have any screw holding characteristics at all...

Or... did it just hold a hollow wall anchor??

[PastorPaul]

Marc,

It was the plastic screw anchors that came in the towel bar's mounting kit. They have a bit more bite than the ones I normally find at the lumber company, hardware store, or big box store. When the foam surrounded those suckers, they held tight.

Pastor Paul
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[TheWoodMan]

Marc,

I have to admit I have used expanding foam to fix a recycle bin that the anchors kept comming out of a hollow core door. Not my idea... my wife suggested it. I was skeptical... but IT WORKED! It has been holding a grocery bag worth of recycle for 6 mos now. Works great. :)


Dave

[FireWrks7]

Great to hear it Padre :-) ... like woodworking and a few things in life, there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

Marc ... told you so, LOL, jka :P

[WoodMangler]

You sure did! ...

Love to learn stuff... I'll file this little tid-bit away as I'm sure I'll end up using it in the future :)

Thanks!