Billing question

[Birdhunter1]

So people have been asking me to build things for them, one in paticular is a kitchen island. None of the projects I have been asked to build am I afraid I will screw something up, and none of them requires anything for me to learn new tricks or methods so to speak. But trying to figure time into them has got me stumed. Reason being is some of the these things I my have already built for myself but it may be a few minutes here, and hour or two there etc. Back to my HVAC days.... we used to figure materials and if it was a pretty straight foward job we would multiply materials by X % then multply by say 1.3 (for labor and overhead) and call it our estimate. Does anyone do this sort of thing for wodworking stuff.

The kitchen island I am looking at roughly $300 in materials, but it is all roughsawn oak and will have to be planed.. which is no big deal really but time consuming. The rest of it she wants to look more rustic so nothing really but the top has to be a trued real fine finish. I am thinking $300 x 1.5 (for markup) x 1.5 (factoring in labor)= $675 for a 5'x5'x42"H kitchen island with a shelf at the bottom. Does this sound about right?

Keep in mind she broke my heart years ago, I try not to hold grudges but I may as well make it worthwhile!

[cabinetman]

Sometimes the constant factor (X) doesn't apply. For example, in the north, wood cabinets could cost the client less than all laminate cabinets.

For a general factoring, I use a 3x materials for a quick figure. In actuality, I have a per foot price for base cabinets either in wood or laminate. Then I add for the type of drawers and doors. For other than 34 1/2" high base cabinets a surcharge. Then, for whatever the material for the countertop, charged by the linear foot or square foot, whichever is applicable.

You may also have a demolition charge, disposal charge, delivery charge, and an installation charge.

[Sawduster]

Like Mike said, for straight forward cabinet work, everything standard sizes, I think most places have a per foot charge, then add in some amount for drawers and for counter top materials. Judging from what I've seen as prices on drawers on the internet, each drawer can add $50 or more to the per foot price of the cabinet.

For nonstandard stuff, folks come up with all sorts of formulas for determining price, some getting as detailed as figuring the time aspect for every joint in the piece, then multiplying that by a shop rate which includes an hourly wage, utilities, depreciation of machinery, shop materials etc. This is added to a detailed materials price (which is cost plus time for picking materials plus markup). Then a percentage of the total is added in for profit.

I don't particularly care for the materials times X method since it doesn't truly account for your time. For instance, round these parts cherry runs near $6.00 bdf while I can get white oak for less than $3.00 bdf. Using white oak entails more work and wear to machines because of its hardness compared to cherry, but would bring in significantly less money.

Better to try to estimate the hours you will spend doing the work and using an hourly shop rate. Doesn't need to be as detailed as figuring time for each joint and cut, but you can get pretty close if you have an idea of how long different processes will take.

[TDHofstetter]

I might add - especially in cases where you KNOW (and are FAMILIAR WITH) the customer... an estimate is only an estimate, and not a bid.

In my case, I'll come up with a WA guess for my time, & then about double it 'cause I always guess waaay low. THEN I'll multiply it again by about another 1.5, and when I give it to the customer I'll make it clear that it's a high estimate, and explain that I'd much rather estimate something high & have it finish up lower than the estimate than to estimate it low & have it run overbudget. They'll usually swallow that pretty well.

Then I'll CHARGE them actual time & materials, to keep it honest & fair. Nobody makes out like a bandit, nobody suffers. If I screw up & need to redo part of it for some reason, I'll eat that before the customer ever knows about it, and charge them honest straight error-free time.

Very often, if price is an actual concern for the customer, they won't want it done at all... because they can get cheap termite-vomit stuff for less than any custom cabinet.

-- Tim --

Member of the
Robert "Limey" Bolton Memorial
International
Volunteer Mentorship and Assistance
Programme

[arcticfox46]

It ALWAYS take longer than expected.

It ALWAYS needs more materials than expected.

If planing your own lumber from rough sawn is what you want to do that is OK - but in MY estimation - in the end - the finish milled lumber should NOT cost more than it would cost if you just bought dimensioned lumber - hence, your time, cannot really be recouped on that stuff.

I would go to a furniture store that builds real wood furniture, and take some pictures. Yeah, sounds weird, but I have done that on many occasions. Take a pic of the price tag as well, cause you will forget.

Think about what will be involved in the project and think about if you could do it for the price of the real wood stuff from the furniture store. Of course you want to be less - but then again, "why" be less.

Looking at the furniture store will give you a baseline on what the price should be.

[JBark]

My method for pricing was always to see what toher people price it out for and then adjust. Adjustments are made for a number of factors. Do you have more or less overhead than the other guy (the comparison guy,) do you know or like your customer or owe them a favor, are you building it better or cheaper than the other guy, etc., etc. One way or another you should come up with a fair price for yourself and your customer.

[Birdhunter1]

Thanks guys, lots of good advice. I like the idea of going to furniture stores and taking pictures of prices, I have actually done that with some things I have sold. And of course yes I have burned myself on time involved in some things. Not long ago I built a podium for a new teacher and had my material costs covered but shot myself in the foot on labor. But since I said X price I stuck by it, didn't tell her the difference but said if anyone else wants one it'll be _____.

On this kitchen island, the design she is wanting is very similar to one of my shop benches, but of course will require a bit more of a finishing touch. I am figuring about two full days in at most and I have figured it by materials + 16 hours time and the way listed above.

On the method above I probably should explain a little better, the '1.5' factoring in labor can also be a scale of how easy of a project it will be on a 1-10 scale with 1 being easy and 10 being rather difficult.

[TDHofstetter]

I'm not so sure that factoring is valid. After all, every "expert" gets bread-and-butter work, and easy stuff takes just as long as tough stuff. In fact... as one's skills improve, everything gets easier & easier. Should the price go down to reflect that in factoring?

-- Tim --

Member of the
Robert "Limey" Bolton Memorial
International
Volunteer Mentorship and Assistance
Programme

[stretch2187]

You and your customer need to understand that this is custom work. You are building a project to her size and specifications. I tell people who come to me, that if they can find exactly what they want in a furniture store, then they should get it, because I can't compete with the price of mass produced furniture. However, if they can't find what they want, and they really want a custom piece build to fit their space, and finished to their specifications then I'll do it for them. I charge accordingly. I figure the hours I'll have in a project and multiply it by a flat hourly rate designed to cover my overhead and labor and add that to the cost of materials. My rate is $30/hr. Then I'll look at the price and see if it fits the piece and possibly adjust it up or down. This is dependent on a lot of factors like my relationship to the client (mom gets very special rates :)), and how badly I need the work among others. Once I have a number I'll give them a quote and that quote is a final price. I do not give them the hourly time estimate. If I get it done faster than my estimated amount of time, then good for me, I did well on that job. If it takes me longer, I try to take note where the time was lost so I can factor it into future quotes so they are more accurate. This is all critical to me because I do this for a living.

I will do stuff for friends and family very cheaply, but it comes with one stipulation. No deadline. I'm more than happy to do stuff for close friends and family during my spare time, but they have to understand that. I can't take time out of my work day and not get paid for it.

[Tony B]

The first thing to consider is that there is a 'going price' for almost everything. This means that in your 'spare' time, you must go window shopping at furniture stores and cabinet shops to get in the ballpark.
The next part requires experience, your own experience, that is. You should know from past experience approximately how long it will take to do a particular job. This is where most of us starting out way underestimate the time. Once we have a time estimate then we have to have an hourly rate estimate (That is a whole different topic).
Then comes the materials factor. Figure out your materials list quickly and add 20% to the list.
Finally we merge all of this together and come up with a standard per foot estimate. Say for instance we come up with a figure of $100/ft for the case. Then we add $100/drawer and then the cost of the top. So..........If a customer wants a 9 drawer dresser, we estimate at 7 foot long. Thats $700 for the case. Then another $900 for the 9 drawers and $200 for the top. A quick estimate would be $1800 for the dresser. Then add more money for any unusual or unique design requirements such as a difficult wood to work with or time for catalog shopping for unique hardware, etc.
Then look at the overall price and ask yourself "is a 9 drawer dresser worth $1800?" The answer is "yes" definately. A good piece of furniture in a quality store will ask that much. If they are not willing to pay, move on. If you take on more than 1 job in 5 that you bid on, you will be losing money.



Tony B
www.TheTexasWoodWorks.com